Alex LeBeau (00:00.203)
Hello and welcome to today's edition of the Exposure Scientist podcast. Today we're going to be talking about restoration challenges and the importance of industrial hygienists, the importance of cooperative engagement to ensure safety during restoration projects. My guest today is Tom Barczak with TerraCon and Tom, I'm going to have you introduce yourself and tell us about your knowledge in this area.

Tom (00:23.166)
Yeah, great. Thank you so much for inviting me and having me on this podcast. I look forward to this conversation and just bringing some awareness to both the industrial hygienist role and the restoration events. So I've been working in industrial hygiene the past 20, 22 years, really focused on indoor air quality and also in the restoration events, how restoration events occur, the impact and how to restore. A lot of work with indoor air quality has been from mold, asbestos, hazardous building materials.

And as of late, I think it's important we should discuss is dealing with illicit drugs as well. And these other agents that a lot of times aren't thought about. So raise some awareness around this too.

Alex LeBeau (01:04.907)
Sure, and we'll get into that. I've worked with Tom at a previous company that I was at and had some interactions with him on some of those illicit drug interactions or problems. So I'm sure we'll get into that at some point today. But the importance here is identifying this restoration kind of market. So could you kind of give us an idea of what the market currently is for restoration projects, where they're focusing, or maybe there's a change since there's a new focus on improving indoor air quality?

Tom (01:34.462)
Yeah, absolutely. Right now the market is expanding. There's a lot of activity in the restoration market, which I think is a great time for us to increase our awareness and involvement in this market. Several years ago, if you're not familiar, Blackstone purchased Serve Pro. And so what we're seeing now, that really tipping point of these large private equity firms purchasing restoration companies. So you got to ask why, what's going on? What's the activity? The market is seeing record.

profits, record growth, expansions. A lot of companies or several companies are purchasing smaller groups. These mergers we're seeing more and more. So I think that just helps us recognize, okay, there's activity in the marketplace, how is it impacting restoration services? And how is it impacting the safety and health of the both buildings, the occupants? So right now with this activity going on,

And I'm not seeing the increase in training or certifications or regulations. So I think that's also important for us to grow. But the engagement with industrial hygiene with a well -rounded team, I think should be our focus.

Alex LeBeau (02:44.043)
Sure, and it's interesting you brought that up about the acquisitions. I think within the industrial hygiene kind of profession as well, we've seen a lot of acquisitions of smaller firms into larger firms and that training and learning process about the restoration because if it's a larger firm that has typically done restoration and they bring in a smaller firm that doesn't, those people may be new to the restoration process. So kind of getting them to understand what...

the problems are in either the indoor air quality space or indoor environmental quality or the restoration process itself is probably important as well.

Tom (03:20.19)
Yeah, absolutely. You know, what is training? What is that certification that we're going to require that uniform process? All that should be evaluated and looked at. I also want to add too though, that, you know, we're seeing a lot of record increase in events and larger events, more named storms, not just hurricanes, you know, but we've had everything from a record snowfall events, freezes, pipe breaks.

Alex LeBeau (03:32.811)
What kind of...

Tom (03:47.038)
to the flooding events in the West Coast. So we're seeing an increase in natural disasters, restoration of large events. We're also seeing more complex buildings. So we need to, again, take a broader look at the entire environment. I'm only expecting more and more of these storms to happen. And these are devastating storms. So a broader approach is needed there too.

Alex LeBeau (04:09.067)
Would you say, and I've seen statistics on this, as far as restorations and what problems are occurring from that and the impacts from environmental events, would you say, in your experience, have you seen that deferred maintenance in these facilities has also contributed to the restoration project problems?

Tom (04:31.998)
Yeah, that deferred maintenance absolutely is you, you know, when you open a wall cavity or you're restoring, you know, certain areas within a building, those surprises that happen. Okay, this wasn't noticed or it was noticed, it wasn't corrected. Now the event goes from a smaller localized area to a much broader spectrum. Now we're dealing with multiple rooms, multiple areas versus one isolated event. And the impacts are only greater. You got a small roof leak that now can turn into a massive damage to the entire building.

Alex LeBeau (05:02.187)
Yeah, no, I mean, that makes perfect sense. Or, you know, you've probably seen, you know, when we're talking about indoor air quality and maintenance on older HVAC systems that are not being cleaned properly or not being maintained with an annual service inspection or something like that, that's just causing much greater problems. Let's say the AC is not working as efficiently as it would, leading to humidity problems. And it just kind of...

blows up from there, the problems. As you said, you may be looking initially at the localized event, but realize it's much bigger. The scope definitely has changed on your project.

Tom (05:40.382)
Yeah. You know, back in the early 2000s, one of the greatest things that we identified was you've designed building systems, HVAC systems, as you mentioned, to condition a building. But then you put wallpaper, you know, that vinyl wrapping on the interior and along the exterior walls. So now you've created a moisture barrier. Well, the system wasn't designed for that. You got to control that moisture barrier. And so every time you removed wallpaper, you know, a lot of these buildings, we found microbial growth.

And now that has to be addressed and it's not localized. A lot of these are building wide. So really expands that the project immensely.

Alex LeBeau (06:18.123)
Yeah, no, I mean, that definitely is a problem is as I, as I always like to say from the get everyone involved from the design initial phases of the building, industrial hygienist, engineers, architects, or whatever, maybe even interior designers, because if they're going to change the dynamics of the building, as you said, it's not going to be operating as designed and intended, it's going to be changing the whatever kind of ratios may be in there for airflow or air exchanges, and it just creates problems.

Tom (06:47.742)
Yeah, it definitely exasperates him.

Alex LeBeau (06:51.019)
So as far as the restoration process, how have you seen industrial hygiene, I know you've been doing this for 22 years, how have you seen industrial hygiene, I'll just say, change from its traditional roles to embracing indoor air quality or indoor environmental quality from...

I'll just say a community standpoint, your building standpoint, building science kind of view.

Tom (07:22.782)
Yeah, great question. And I think this is a key point where industrial hygienists need to get much more engaged and involved. So typically back in the day, let's say 20 years ago, industrial hygienists were always brought in as an afterthought, right? Typically we were brought in to do a clearance test. You know, mold testing was probably one of the first ones. Yes, asbestos, hazardous building testing, but those were always afterthoughts. We weren't part of the team to help restore the building. It was in response to a microbial growth per se.

You know, industrial hygienists, the coined phrase they call us, I hope that could change someday. Because what is industrial hygienists? What's their focus? You know, that's not the best describer of what we can offer, what we can do. And then when you get into these complex problems, sometimes you are brought in to help provide that component, that key component that's necessary. I love working on healthcare projects because a lot of healthcare communities, they do what's called the huddle.

Alex LeBeau (08:04.427)
Mm -hmm.

Tom (08:19.998)
And so they bring in expert fund facilities, environmental services and IH, all these team members come together and they form a well -rounded team. They've got this history. That's what I'm hoping that we can insert ourselves on that team when needed. It's not always the case. And a lot of times, you know, insurance companies and they're the drivers a lot of times of, of what we do and the event, but we're a key component on that team. How has it changed? I think the awareness of us.

is out there. I think safety is not nearly what it should be, that safety component. How can we be safe at this? I also think source identification is a key point that we should be much more involved in so that you can build a restoration scope around the element or the agent itself. That source is critical and we can be part of that solution. And then also not just creating the project scope, but the clearance requirements. What does clean mean?

What does the end result, what are we looking for? How do we identify that the project has been done well and is complete? I think we need to be a much more component and piece of that too.

Alex LeBeau (09:30.859)
It's interesting you brought that up and you had very good points there and I'll challenge you with some thoughts here. I mean, the reason, I mean, as you said, traditionally we were referred to as industrial hygienists, it's been that way for 70, 80 years or so when industry was a big thing. But now it's, manufacturing is minimized and our, all this say scope is kind of growing as far as what we are involved in. You know, I, the,

reason this is titled the exposure scientists is that's kind of what we are. We evaluate exposure. We use our scientific knowledge to identify exposures, to minimize risks, to evaluate safety, and to target that one particular item or subject matter that we're looking for to reduce exposure or to mitigate it. One thing that you mentioned that was interesting was the thought that we should be integrated from a, I'll say,

Proactive stance. I have always tried to do this or approach my my Interactions people from proactive as you said years ago. We were always viewed as a reactive We come in on the other one end It is always and it seems like an uphill battle to be on the proactive side I've tried a lot of times to be on the front end of it, but you know When it comes to having funding from a proactive stance, it seems to be very difficult

There's often, as you said, insurance companies or otherwise, there always seems to be funding on the reactive end of it, but helping people understand that there's a return on investment and having from us from a proactive approach seems to be better. I don't know, I'd like to hear your experience from that proactive side.

Tom (11:15.518)
Yeah, I'm hoping that, you know, the call to action as part of this podcast, we can get there. I think that's a massive call to action, a proactive plan. What are you going to do to respond to both the little incidents to let's say the catastrophic large events. You should have a plan, a team in place today in order to respond to that. And if you don't, that's, that's an action item for you. If you're a building owner and or manager, especially if it's, if it's a large residential multifamily.

or if it's a manufacturing, you really need that plan in place today. One thing that I get frustrated a little bit about is, you know, people don't understand mitigation. They don't understand psychometrics. Those are some basic things that we do in restoration. But yet you're making a decision of who you want to hire, not understanding the industry, not understanding what fans do, de -emitifiers. So you really need to think about that in a proactively. Tell me more about that.

How are you gonna help my building? What are you gonna do to help me when I face these situations? How are you gonna protect my workers, my guests who are in the building? Those are all great questions to ask today, not when it happens. Now, I think I'm gonna share a story a little bit too where, you know, this was a crisis situation that we were brought into and it didn't have to be this way. And luckily, you know, nobody was hurt, but definitely exposure risk. But...

Alex LeBeau (12:35.595)
You know, you... Go ahead, sorry.

Tom (12:38.782)
Now I was going to say, it's a vital, you're making business decisions and decision about people's health and you're not well informed. Bring us in on the front end so that you do have the information and you can ask those better questions.

Alex LeBeau (12:51.211)
One thing that you again mentioned, I think is very important and health care kind of has this mandate now in implementing it is the emergency plan or emergency preparedness. Have things in place for when things go wrong. Have your supply chain in place or have contingency plans or what have you. And it seems like, and you can tell me otherwise, it seems like not all health care facilities are up to speed fast enough on that. It seems like there's

you know, even though there are some requirements for it, it's taking a while to build up to have that emergency plan in place. And some of them still are being caught off guard. And I don't know if you had similar experience or like to understand your experience there from a healthcare standpoint.

Tom (13:38.782)
Yeah, a lot of times people, since they don't understand restoration, they don't know how to prepare and plan for it. You know, they understand, I've got water in the building, okay, how much water and what needs to happen to properly mitigate. Since they don't understand it, they're not asked the right questions. They're not helping themselves prepare for it. Again, another reason to bring us in and ask those questions. That huddle is important, but I wish that huddle would happen the day the hospital opened. And now let's talk about how we're gonna prepare for this.

The other thing I want to point out too is when you have a community event, when you have a storm hit a community, all the restoration vendors are going to be tapped. Those resources will be used up. What is your plan in that case? Yes, there'll be support companies coming in from different areas, different States, but will you be on the list? How soon will you be serviced? Who's coming? What are their training? What commitment have you been, have you put in place?

to get the level of response you need. Speaking of healthcare, Alex, I wanna go back to that. That's a vital part of our community is healthcare. These emergency situations, I would hope they would have that proactive plan in place so they can serve the community, help us in a larger event.

Alex LeBeau (14:54.283)
I think that's great info and that's what you brought up there was being on the list. Part of that emergency plan is have your vendors in place. I know, for example, if there's issues and there's local HVAC companies where I am, have a relationship with them built up so you are on that list. When something happens, they call you. You don't have to worry about calling them. They say, hey, do you need anything? Because if you don't have those,

relationships built up, you know, if you're talking about dehumidification machines or, you know, portable HEPA filter machines or portable HEPA filters, they only have a finite amount of those. And if they have people that are lined up and they have a list and say, we're done. And as you said, it may be people coming in from out of town, out of state, and they, they, you don't know, you haven't vetted them. And but they are the ones who are showing up and they may not be.

the best. You may not know anything about them and you don't know anything about their equipment and or their processes.

Tom (16:00.222)
Yeah, I want to add this to this is not a negative against the restoration industry. You know, they're the partners. We need them. When a small leak happens to a catastrophe, we need these vendors, right? Some of these are very highly trained. And so if I'm putting my vendor hat on a restoration vendor, I would love to be able to walk your facility before an event. I would love to identify staging locations. Interesting points about the building that I need to be aware of. You know, I would love to take notes down.

Alex LeBeau (16:05.803)
Now.

Tom (16:29.246)
Power is a big issue. We have all this equipment. How are we going to power it? What are your critical areas? But now if a restoration vendor can see it proactively, I can put a great plan in place. The what if factors. So it goes both ways. That partnership is critical. Ideally, I would love to walk, have an industrial hygienist, restoration vendor, a facility or somebody's aware of the building and understands the business, whatever that business is, all that group to walk the facility and put this plan together.

Alex LeBeau (16:32.907)
Mm -hmm.

Alex LeBeau (16:58.443)
One thing I'm going to ask you about, and it's important as far as the restoration vendor, is there has been, I'll say, attempts to have people understand the importance of industrial hygienists in this process. And some of what I've seen through, and you're familiar with IICRC, I think the importance is we're...

from industrial hygiene standpoint, I know I have tried to build a better relationship with IICRC. Some of the vendors, I think it's important for them, if they're listening, to understand that industrial hygienists are here to not only help them, but help the end client as well. We are not there to be adversarial to them. We all have a similar goal. So I'd like to, if you could give us some of your thoughts there as well, because I know there have been some ebbs and flows in

the relationship between industrial hygienists and IICRC.

Tom (17:57.598)
You said that very well, ebbs and flows. You're absolutely right. I say back in history that any type of negative impression that we've had is when we talk about clearance report, it's pass fail. And so right immediately, we're the ones brought in that's just, oh, you passed it. Oh, good. You did good. You failed. That's just the opposite. So we have to get away from that pass fail ratio and say, how can I help you with this project? What's our goal?

Alex LeBeau (18:00.171)
Yeah.

Tom (18:25.598)
how to be partner on this, not just a pass fail. But yeah, we need to be part of that. IIS here sees a great body of work. If you look at the guidelines, that's 500 for example, how many times is it mentioned, you know, lean on, ask for industrial hygienists to assist you on these projects. I don't see that language inserted as other resources are, and we should be inserted on that. IIS here see, in my opinion, a very focused on the restoration services.

Um, and they're very helpful, some great guidelines in place. That's a great place to start a conversation. Use those guidelines as part of your program, as part of your plan and develop from there. Don't, this is not the, all the one way of doing it. It helps with the problem solving, but I wish they would insert more of industrial jets in our role that we can support.

Alex LeBeau (19:19.787)
Sure, no, I completely agree. And I think that's what our efforts have been towards is understanding that we are there. They may view us as, as you said, pass fail. We're there to get a job done. And I like how you said that, and I've said it before, is the guidance is not the ending point. The guidance is the starting point. And you grow from that point. Everybody views that and says, oh, this is what the guidance is. The guidance is where you start from. And then,

expand from there. And some people that are not, I'll say, experienced in this area don't really appreciate it.

Tom (19:57.598)
Yeah, I love how you said it's a starting point. How the guidelines are applied is where you bring the team in. And that team can say, okay, in order to accomplish this, here's how it's going to affect the building and the people. What are we going to do about that? I'll give an example, you know, talk about HVAC systems. When you throw or if you have a loss, you know, 100 gallons of water impact the building. Mechanical systems are not designed to handle that increasing humidity.

So therefore, what are you gonna do about that? What are the next steps? What deminification? Air flow, great, we wanna move air. That's critical to mitigation. Where's that air going? What air is coming into the building? How is it being moved throughout the building? Got stack effect and high rises. All of these issues really need to be discussed with a well -rounded team. So guidelines say, you should have deminification of fans and air movement. Great, that's a good guidelines.

How do we apply it to this specific building with or without occupants? That's how we need to really look at the scenario.

Alex LeBeau (21:03.019)
Sure. Do you have some example? You mentioned an example earlier of a real life kind of scenario. Do you have an example that you can kind of give us your experience with the restoration process and I'll say challenges that you may have run into while you're working on that project?

Tom (21:19.454)
Yeah, I would love to share a story. This happened in February of this year, 2024. And this is an exact example of a critical situation we were brought into. And I want to share this because it allows us a lot of opportunity for learning. It's again, not to critique. It's just a learning opportunity. So we were called in day three of a fire that occurred in a manufacturing facility. We were called in because...

The owner, the operator, the managers were not receiving the services they thought were appropriate. They had a lot of questions that were being answered, a lot of uncertainties. They asked us to come up if we can assist with really setting up the scope of work. Absolutely. Great. Thanks for calling. So a little details about the project. It's a metal plating manufacturing facility, about 75 workers kind of on the floor and they had an attached office area as well. The fire occurred in one of their finishing,

furnaces plating furnishing furnaces, so he asked okay tell us what was in there What what was what was the components of the of the fire? What soot was released? What is the source basically? I don't know we never asked when no one's ever asked At this point restoration work has already been has already started a very well -known National company had already started cleaning

Okay, well, what's the scope of work? Well, we don't really know how it's containment been set. No containment's been set. And as we walk around, a lot of questions come up. So I'll share just a few of these. They had air circulation, HEPA -filtered air scrubbers throughout the facility, but there was no really rhyme or reason. No containments were set up. It gets worse. Alex, I was just stunned. They had cleaning crews on top of catwalks, cleaning areas above.

workers. So the operations never shut down. So you've got multiple issues and hazards right there. A lot of the workers, again, since operation was going, they had N95 masks on most of them on their chins. They actually had soot on their face and they were wearing gloves. They have soot on their gloves. And so right there, it's just multiple issues of lack of control, lack of planning, you know, just a lack of overall response.

Tom (23:47.326)
It gets worse. So we met with the restoration crew. He said, stop everything. We need a plan. We need to discuss all of these safety issues. We need to discuss the cleaning protocol. Why are we here and do a source identification? So really what was missing the whole time was nobody on day one did that first evaluation of identifying what is the source? What's the cleaning scope, cleaning protocol, cleaning chemicals. And then say, okay, let's talk about the building itself.

What type of chemicals are on place? It's a plating facility where chemicals stored, where any of the chemicals affected. And then we did a perimeter. So typically we want to identify what is the perimeter. We identified 95 % of the manufacturing area was contaminated with soot, but it wasn't contained. About 50 % of the office had evidence of soot. Now again, we have not identified what's the soot, what's the source, what's the hazard here.

So all of these missing pieces, we had to actually stop the job and start from day one and look at source identification, put a plan in place, safety protocol, and evaluate what concerns, what safety concerns were already existing at the plant that you now have workers or unfamiliar with this location working in. And then how are we going to do it in a safe manner? Luckily, we're able to stop the job, turn the job around and reset.

and put these measures in place that are absolutely critical. And you would think a national company that these would already be in place. To see somebody cleaning on catwalks above workers, I've just never seen that before. No safety gear, no hard hats, no fall protection, a lift and ladder. So it was such a, fortunately nobody was hurt, but I think it was just a matter of time.

But that case where an industrial hygienist had been brought in, we were brought in to handle safety issues, source identification, to help with the protocol, help with containment, help with also outlining what is the end result? What does clean mean and how are we going to validate clean?

Alex LeBeau (25:57.931)
Right. One question I have of many. Did the site have an on -site safety or industrial hygiene person?

Tom (26:09.278)
Nope, did not. They had an EHS person. You know, we kind of get pulled into EHS. That's a big role to fill. They had somebody who was aware and was trying to fill the EHS role. But you know, they need support too. That's too many hats to wear.

Alex LeBeau (26:15.499)
We do.

Alex LeBeau (26:24.875)
Yeah. I think a lot of people misunderstand what the site safety and health person is. You know, they have their one particular focus and oftentimes they, I don't want to describe it as a distraction, but things that are going on outside of their scope or their focus is a distraction to their job.

Oftentimes, you're going to need someone who comes in and does this on a regular basis, who knows what they're doing, can easily do it and doesn't distract them from their one particular role there. And as you said, if they try to put on too many hats, things get diluted and it sounds like it snowballs into this situation that you ran into there.

Tom (27:11.614)
Yeah, I would also say, you know, a lot of a lot of people have never experienced a restoration event. So it's not a common experience. And therefore you need people who are engaged in this to help you with that. Um, I mean, and I turn the tables on this, what if, and here's what this proactive planning should look like. What if day one, the restoration vendor shows up, the EHS person has their safety manual has all their chemicals list, their SDS sheets has critical areas and they hand them binders and they say,

Here's how we operate, here's our concerns, here's the safety measures we currently have in place. And now we talk about exposure. What are my workers exposed to because of this fire? If operations must continue, how can we do it safely? And what does safely mean? Having that dialogue day one, the restoration vendor would have had a better chance to achieve success. You would have had critical components for safety to address potential exposures. And again, that well -rounded team.

Unfortunately, in this case, it was not. The most safety we saw was a barrier that caution tape around the furnace that caught on fire, but no other real safety measures were in place. It was catastrophic.

Alex LeBeau (28:23.467)
And as you said, from what the workers are wearing, it's oftentimes you run into these scenarios where even the vendor is not, I'll say, acutely aware of what's necessary for ensuring the safety of their own workers. And if they are not aware of what's needed for their workers, they're definitely not going to be aware of what's needed for your facilities employees.

So again, as you said, it's part of a comprehensive team. Know when to ask for help. There's no shame in asking for help. I think a lot of people feel like they can do it all and you can't. You have to ask for help.

Tom (29:04.99)
Yeah, and then we all get tunnel vision sometimes too. So having a fresh perspective, you know, ask some critical questions is necessary. I think it only helps the project and protects people. You know, just to give it in 95s out as a safety blanket, you know, was that appropriate? You know, what, what is the potential exposure? If you haven't identified the source yet? Is there dermal issues? None of those things were even asked. It was a safety will give up in 95s. They'll be fine.

or they'll keep working. That's not appropriate.

Alex LeBeau (29:37.675)
So from using that scenario, do you see from a, I'll just say, either business interruption side or loss of revenue side for getting ahead of the safety concerns and getting it in early, do you see a benefit to saving money in the long run by getting us in early instead of having things done the wrong way for I'll say a week?

and then having to stop, reevaluate, redo everything, and then put new plans in place.

Tom (30:12.574)
You bring up a very interesting topic and I think it should be discussed more. More conversation around this too is actually who is paying for the services. So typically, and this is again, a broader discussion is needed. What I hear a lot are well, the insurance company is paying for it. Well, this is the vendor, the insurance company recommended. Well, the insurance company says we can't do that. We'll have to get approval from the insurance company and I get their critical component of this. They're they're part of the team.

But I think we need to start asking and understanding who is really the client here. If we're talking about who is the consumer, the building owner manager, what is being done to protect them and their people? And then how is the insurance carrier typically supporting them? What is that partnership? I think we need to take a step back and really look at that because I hear so many times, well, the insurance company said to do this. And not that it's necessarily wrong, but if I'm the consumer, I want to have what's...

How am I being protected? How are my people being protected? And again, that's where the proactive plan comes into place. Bring your insurance team into this discussion on the very onset. We talk about value. We talk about value, what's the value of industrial hygiene immensely, not just when things go wrong, right? Those are very critical situation when things go wrong, the cost can be through the roof.

But bring us in the beginning, okay, what is the mitigation plan? What's the correct equipment needed for these mitigation plan? I just can validate that through simple psychrometrics.

Alex LeBeau (31:52.235)
I think he says something very valuable and I'm going to generalize here and then make it specific is, you know, not all businesses are made the same. Not all insurance companies are made the same. You know, they may be, you may have an insurance company that says you don't need to do that or our expert says you don't need to do that. And when you go and if you get involved in an engagement, you find out maybe their expert doesn't have enough experience in this realm or experience with this particular type.

of restoration of that. Maybe they're just used to a mold event instead of a, I'll say some kind of catastrophic fire event. And they are applying inappropriate metrics to your scenario when the scenario is not what they are used to. So again, I think that's why it's critical for that engagement or get involved and make sure, as you said, the client is looking out for themselves.

Tom (32:44.574)
If you're the owner, the building owner and manager, that falls on you and you need a good team around you. Industrial Hygienists need to be part of that team to only enhance the outcome. And many times what is, oh, we're done, like it never even happened. Everything's clean. What does that mean? There's not that justification or documentation to certify or to justify or to claim.

This job is done.

Alex LeBeau (33:17.771)
I agree and beyond, I'll say beyond that, not only showing this job is done, what are your thoughts on what the safety concerns are for either the restoration employees or the company employees that are being exposed to something? Is a risk assessment necessary for what they were exposed to during either the release events or the restoration event that is retraining material?

potentially into the ambient air. How are you addressing or how do you recommend that be addressed as far as a human health and safety standard?

Tom (33:56.638)
Yeah, well, let's take that little step further too. When a restoration event occurs and people are coming into your building, restoration vendors need to have that safety evaluation. I'll bring one example on right now, the increase with illicit drugs, with fentanyl, with methamphetamines, the use of these products, especially in multifamily settings, we must assume that there's risks that we'll be facing and ask ourselves, am I a protectly?

are properly protected to enter this space. It's no longer going into this to get work done. No, no, what can I do? What do I need to do to protect myself? A lot of these drug rooms you walk into, you know, fentanyl, the lethal dose is such a small, small, and unfortunately, there have been some recent deaths in hotels where children hand a mouth, you know, they touch, and there's been a few deaths, which is a tragic situation.

that again, we need a broad perspective of what am I walking into? What's the restoration event? How do I protect myself and the occupants? When we walk into these restoration and we now we have fans blowing air everywhere, we get equipment introduced, we're introducing cleaning chemicals. Wait a second, what's, why? What's the plan? What's the evaluation you did, the risk assessment, as you mentioned, before you did any of that?

You and I worked on that one hotel site where we had the explosion. And it was that yellow substance throughout. What was that substance? We could not begin work until we identified and did that risk assessment before we put anybody into that building. We needed to do the proper assessment.

Alex LeBeau (35:42.443)
I think that's great. I think, and again, this goes back to the getting us in early on and planning, you know, and it's even training too. Have the people who are on site trained to recognize when there is a problem. If they walk into a situation where they, if their hotel staff or building staff and they see some kind of drug paraphernalia immediately, you know, something like stop, we need an evaluation.

Tom (35:52.542)
Yes.

Alex LeBeau (36:12.075)
or have a plan in place that they're trained to look out for the stuff instead of just blindly sending people in to rooms and not knowing what they're going to interact with and just saying, no big deal. I've been in hotel rooms where I've done, it's not even related to this. It's for a mold assessment. I walk in, we open the door and we see drug paraphernalia. I say, close the door, we're done in here. Because.

But that's the important thing that people need to recognize. And I think there's a lot of lack of training there for the staff at these facilities.

Tom (36:45.95)
100 % and that's one example, you know listed drugs and hotels. There's a link there because Unfortunately use is increasing and a lot of times people are using hotel rooms Because they don't want to bring it into their homes their space They're they're traveling we socially we act in differently in hotel rooms. It's not our space We're just here for one night But now you look at it in manufacturing industrial setting you look at some critical areas in the hospital Let's say where they've got, you know radiation, whatever it may be

Before we go through that door, we need to stop and ask what potential hazards am I gonna be exposed to before I go through that door? We need to find that facility person, say, tell me about your facility. Tell me about areas that I may be exposed to, or I need to interact in this space. What does that mean to me? What does it mean for the restoration efforts? I think those are critical key things that we need to ask better and more questions at the onset.

Alex LeBeau (37:40.587)
You bring up a great point and I like to do this and I'll say again, there's been a wide range that I like to get your input on this is dealing with the facility folks. I view them as our eyes and ears on the site. They know what's going on with their facilities. They know what problems are at their facilities. But sometimes these facility individuals will view outside people as, I'll.

for lack of better terminology, a threat to their existence at the facility or something. What have your interactions been with facility people and how have you helped them understand that we are there to help them out and be on their side?

Tom (38:25.31)
Yeah, it's, we have been right, we do come in where the past fail where the you're doing this wrong. You know, we do sometimes come in with that. And then they're also, you know, this is my facility, they take pride in ownership and that they know best, they've got the history of it too. So by taking all that in consideration, I think we as industrial genius need to do a better job of showing how we can help. I think we can catapult and really use the movement with EHS teams.

and say, we can help support your EHS. So a lot of facility teams are linking EHS. They understand how that helps them. It's a key point to the team. We can come in as industrial hygienists and say, we are an extension of your EHS team. Here to help, here to offer guidance, here to protect you and your workers. I think if we come in with that type of introduction, I think it'd be much warmer. We do talk a lot about risk, you know, risk aversion.

You know, why, how can we help with this? I love doing lunch and learns. I love doing these podcasts and Alex, thanks for having me on this because I think spreading this information before an incident happens is critical. Um, I, I, nobody likes, I refer to that project you are on a, you and I were on, nobody likes those projects. That was a very difficult and challenging. Um, nobody wants that. Um, so let's prepare ahead of time.

Alex LeBeau (39:29.163)
Of course.

Alex LeBeau (39:44.235)
It was.

Tom (39:50.782)
you know, for those and unfortunately the storm events, they're only going to get worse. So some of these key properties and not just the Gulf, not just hurricanes, but freeze events. Um, let's keep it prepared for those two.

Alex LeBeau (40:03.659)
No, I think that's very important. And I don't know again how the interaction will be with insurance companies. But having this, a lot of insurance companies are viewing, they're leaving certain areas just because of events that are going on. Having, I think, these critical components set up will, I think, help the insurance companies that you're working with feel better about your scenario. Listen, we've got these things that are already set up.

these emergency plans. We are set to go when an event happens. And again, getting ahead of it, as you said, is the critical thing. And understanding that industrial hygienists are there with that expertise. Have you seen an increase or an uptick in engagement from these facilities or any of these companies in understanding the industrial hygiene interactions?

and the critical training and understanding that we bring to the table.

Tom (41:07.326)
Yeah, I'll share one example that I think is very effective for us. When I work with building owners, imagine, I say that a lot because that's a key group of people I like to work with. They understand the business and a lot of them are my clients. They use their buildings as their business. Hotels, for example, they use that building as part of their key part of their business. Other facilities that that building is critical for business operations, manufacturing. So I can approach them and saying, I can help you.

maintain your operations during an event small to large, help you with your business outcome, be a business partner through my IH services, providing safety, reducing your risk, addressing your risk. I think that's a great approach that we can take to get better engaged with those business leaders. That's critical. A lot of these teams are bringing in accountants, specialized accountants to help them with their insurance claim.

We should be an extension just like that. Bring your IH in to help you with your business practices. I've been on multiple buildings where, tell me about your key business operations and how do we maintain those? Oh, if I can put a critical barrier, if I can separate work areas, if I can help you get back in business and restore this area quicker, as it's a key focus to your operations, let's do that. Let's talk about that. So I think approaching a business minded will only help the entire team.

Alex LeBeau (42:36.363)
That's great advice. I think that's wonderful to hear. Again, realizing that the client is concerned about continuing their business and you being there to help them do that. I think that's great. A great description. Thank you. So based on everything that we have talked about today, our critical role is industrial hygienist and the restoration and the restoration process. And our past on work on this,

You talked about storms, you talked about different weather events. Where do you see future trends and challenges in the restoration space with the landscape that we currently face?

Tom (43:18.942)
I think there's many, I think there's several. Right now you're dealing with a market that's very agile, very active. These mergers, I think it's gonna take a couple years for these different acquisitions to become one unit. Just because you buy a company, now you've got to train, you've got to onboard, bring them up to your level of standards. I think over the next few years, there's gonna be some difficulties with that. But I see mergers are only increasing.

Acquisitions only increasing, which means more onboarding, more training is going to be needed. Pulling these different offices together to work as one team is going to be a challenge. That's just what we see in the marketplace, exactly what we see with typical business. So the next couple of years, it's going to be difficult to see these large companies operate as a single unit and show that uniform support, if you will. I also think too, there's some activity with IIS CRC.

with the other Restoration Institute Association, some good activities going on. I hope that they can be a louder voice in the market, hope that they can bring IHS on board, really show that level of dedication to guidelines, certifications. The other thing I'm hopeful for is that there's a little bit more regulations around restoration events. I think that may come from the insurance market because they're paying a lot of this. That's where...

You know, unfortunately, that's where a lot of the funds are coming from. But if there's more regulations around restoration, I think that could be helpful. While at the same time, I'm cautious in saying that we need to have a uniform agreement, if you will, in the restoration market. What does the end user deserve? What is the consumer looking for? What does the consumer need and why? I think we need to put the consumer out into this. I think the consumer needs to be much more focused and in the forefront.

of why and what we do.

Alex LeBeau (45:16.363)
No, I think that's great. And ending on that consumer thing is understanding that if we as industrial hygienists need to be the consumer's advocate, we can be. Because ultimately, we are there to protect many different parties there and be the voice for those people that say, if you want something done correctly the first time, so we don't have to go back and readdress everything else.

Tom (45:44.254)
Yeah, and a lot of our clients that we work with, they've never been through an incident like this. It doesn't happen daily. They understand their business operations, they understand their safety measures as part of their regular operations. But now you've just changed the event. You just changed what normal is because of this restoration event. You need experts on your side to help you through that.

Alex LeBeau (46:07.851)
No, I think that's great. I think that, you know, as you said earlier, a call to action to understand that our role is expanding and our role can be this industrial hygienist role can be from this restoration standpoint and helping and being an advocate for them. And as you said, working with them, a non -typical event for them is critical because we do have that expertise.

Tom (46:35.87)
Yeah. And I want to say something too. We're, we're always being brought into unique projects. There's always something that has occurred, something that's triggered our response. Right? So in a restoration event, something's happened to that building, something random, whatever it may be a small leak to a storm, but something has happened that has changed the indoor environment from what it normally is. You need an expert to help you with that process.

You've experienced a change. Bring a team member that can help you understand what that means to your building and to your people.

Alex LeBeau (47:11.307)
No, I think that's great advice. I think we've covered a lot of stuff. So Tom, thank you very much for joining us today. Tom Barczak with Terracot. I think the information you have given us on today's edition of the Exposure Scientist podcast has been valuable. I hope everyone can take this information and grow from it.

Tom (47:30.462)
Likewise, thank you Alex for having me.

Alex LeBeau (47:32.235)
Of course.